His careful organization of society by a detached philosopher-king rids his ideal state of the self-determination that provides human liberty in a democracy. As he returns to the cave to reveal this, he is met with violent rage. over the function of poetry are shown in The Republic by Plato and in The Defense of Poesy by Sir Philip Sidney. The people will lift this champion to great heights and anoint him with sacred responsibilities to bring liberty to the land. If this is not possible, the ruler will inevitable strike down any political opposition he may have. For those that can not see Plato’s foresight, please delve deeper. The new democratic constitution with its expanded bill of rights was one of the most progressive in the world. "Plato S Arguments Against Democracy" Essays and Research Papers . Plato's main grievance with democratic culture is the notion that an ill-informed … Plato hated democracy for a number of reasons, least of all was Athens putting his friend Socrates to death. And now the leader is a tyrant, born from democracy and propped up by the demand for liberty. The tyrannical man would represent Tyranny, for example. 21 - 30 of 500 . The philosopher Plato discusses five types of regimes (Republic, Book VIII; Greek: πέντε πολιτεῖαι).They are Aristocracy, Timocracy, Oligarchy, Democracy, and Tyranny.Plato also assigns a man to each of these regimes to illustrate what they stand for. More fundamentally, democracy lets people speak their minds and shape their own and their children’s futures. The vast majority of the people should only take care of their jobs and their own lives. Only free men who had completed their military service were allowed to vote on any legislation. Although plato was right, agreed but democracy remains the adorable and acceptable form of government. Plato's Criticism of Democracy Plato, having defined his perfect society, now seeks to compare contemporary 'imperfect' societies with his ideal standard. In his famous Allegory of the Cave (Book VI), Plato illustrates a moment in which a man discovers the reality of the world is different than perceived by prisoners in a cave. A carefully selected elite should have a broad education in philosophy, history and political science. European political thought became dominated by appraisals to democratic values in the 20th century, as democracy swept the continent. | Malcolm Dixon, Crisis of democracy – social decline through politicization, and insistence on freedoms and rights – S K Ditta, Crisis of democracy - social decline through politicization, and insistence on freedoms and rights | S K Ditta, 6) Critically analyze Plato’s thoughts on the system of democracy. Aristotle pursued political knowledge with a historical appreciation and practical sensibilities which reflected the epistemological divide between the two great thinkers — Plato a rationalist and Aristotle an empiricist. Such emotion, a Platonic viewpoint may claim, is conducive to political hysteria enabling a well-timed tyrant to capitalize on the will for strong leadership and violent retribution. They should be the leaders of society. Everything is full of the spirit of liberty and even animals walk the streets with rights. Reported in Thucydides’ book the History of the Peloponnesian War, the Athenian assembly, scared of further revolt, hastily sentenced all of the male citizens of the rebellious city-state Mytilene to death, while the women and children would be sold into slavery. It is understandable why Plato would despise democracy, considering that his friend and mentor, Socrates, was condemned to death by the policy makers of Athens in 399 BCE. Ignoring the lower class population was dangerous according to Aristotle, and likewise, notions such as a frequently idle warrior population were simply impractical. These men were tried and executed one after another until only one remained. They created this not so perfect but an amazing nation we call home. Plato and Aristotle are not wholly or diametrically opposed to each other and this stance against democracy is one of those where they share a similar view, even though they may differ in the specifics. The whimsical nature of public support defies sound reason and produces fatal inconsistency over time. Plato S Arguments Against Democracy Calderoni Plato’s Argument Against Democracy Term Paper In Western culture, democracy is deemed as the most appropriate … And so the democratic leaders will unnecessarily become involved in violent affairs, creating wars to distract the people. Platos charge against democracy is that it violates the proper order of society by creating an artificial equality. But rather than denunciating these substantive realities, the great philosopher was concerned this society would cause a greater conflict; a political conflict yielding hunger for a single, strong leader — a tyrant. Plato uses The Republic to deliver a damning critique of democracy that renders it conducive to mass ignorance, hysteria, and ultimately tyranny. The learned greeks considered democracy to be mob rule and rightly saw its weaknesses. During the Peloponnesian war, the ten treasurers of the Delian League were accused of embezzling funds from the Athenian treasury. When the Weimar Republic was formed in 1919, there were hopeful signs that democracy would take root in Germany. The guilt and economic collapse enraged the German population, feeling it a huge mark of shame on national pride. As well as being symbolic of Athens’ treatment of Socrates, it suggests that knowledgeable leadership cannot survive in democracy as it will be ‘warped and estranged’ by the need to remain popular. When the smoke clears the old regime will be gone and a democracy will be supplanted. The first, rather obvious, strike against Athenian democracy is that there was a tendency for people to be casually executed. God Bless all who live in this great land. In different sections of Plato’s Republic, this hostility towards philosophy (true knowledge) is predicted. That is why they believed a democratic Republic was the best government. Ancient Greece is famed for both it’s democracy and philosophy. He believes that democracy is not an ideology ruling system. Plato’s Republic is written in a series of dialogues in which Socrates is given a starring role — Socrates himself never wrote his work down. Plato’s basic idea is that a regime is inherently defective if it gives people a right to participate in political office whether or not they have … This new form of government empowered the common citizen in ways that were unheard of. Those who seek reality are those best qualified to guide as they have the greatest knowledge at their disposal. Plato was against democracy. Rather, it elects popular spinsters who are effective in manipulating popular opinion. This essay examines the Republic’s most important argument against democracy, and claims that it remains, even amidst the dominance of democratic theory, a powerful critique not only of Athenian democracy but also of representative democracy. As democracy is preceded by rule of the rich, Plato believed that under a democratic regime, there would be considerable resentment against the … People try everyday to escape their personal schackles to live amongst the most free people, to come to live in the USA in the most free country in the entire world. In this society awash with liberty, there is no distinction between citizens, immigrants, and aliens. In the good old USA a President is elected not by the majority of the voters. Plato theorized that democracies would eventually become so bad that the people themselves would demand that a dictator come and save them. In 399bc Socrates was put on trial by a small group of fellow citizens acting as democratic citizen-prosecutors. … History has shown a consistent pattern of subjugation, revolution and subjugation once again. cbafgbecfafe. Lange (1939) uses Plato’s personal experiences to explain his reasons against democracy, for example he lived through the apparent ‘enlightened democracy’, actually considered dictatorship of Pericles and that democracy had basically killed his inspiration of Socrates. Just as 'monarchy' means 'rule by the monarch', 'democracy' means 'rule by the demos '. All Rights Reserved. And in our quest for liberty, we instead created a monster. A final irony is that Plato’s advocacy of censorship of art, poetry, and bad characters (Books III and X) could perhaps prohibit The Republic from existing in his own ideal state. And the next time we celebrate the 4th of July, keep in mind that a far wiser man than any of us once called to our attention the unavoidable and disastrous nature of the pursuit of liberty. (Image: wikimedia / … At this point the citizens will try to get rid of whatever man is currently in office, either by exile or impeachment. To ensure their power, the leaders will create laws to bolster their position. Six commanders were executed for failing to perform their duties. Plato, one of the earliest to see democracy … That so many people in so many different parts of the world are prepared to risk so much for this idea is testimony to its enduring appeal”. ‘Philosophy’ can be interpreted from Greek as the love of wisdom, thus a true philosopher is a person who seeks pleasure purely of the mind. But what is the demos? From this revolution, blood will be spilled and many will die. Instead, we should seek out only the most knowledgeable candidate as it is he who holds the required expertise. Although some of the thoughts are reflective of “The Republic”, to get to the bottom of Plato and Socrates’ concerns for their concept of democracy, is that democracy (by its definition “the great experiment”) can not survive as it is fundamentally flawed in theory by the greater growing demands of individual needs, small groups and expectations of repairations or entitlements. Once we have tasted freedom we become drunk off it. Aside from inconsistency, Plato also insists that the hysteria of democracy leads to its demise in other ways: “An excessive desire for liberty at the expense of everything else is what undermines democracy and leads to the demand for tyranny”. Plato states in the Republic that democracy is just a latter stage of a declining state. (250 words)  - INSIGHTS, Inclusivity: The possible dream - Moneyweb, The Fragility of Democracy: Athens and the Thirty Tyrants | Classical Wisdom Weekly, EP 3: It's an AfterMath - Economics Design, Plato And Hobbes: On the Revolutions during Arab Spring | Vidhi Legal, Antigone: Democracy vs. Authoritarianism | Classical Wisdom Weekly, Top Ten: Most Terrifying Monsters Of Greek Mythology, Five Reasons Why Socrates Was A Terrible Husband, Prometheus The Creation of Man and a History of Enlightenment. They only seem to care about the people when it comes time for re-election. (Plato, Republic, 282) Plato's opposition to democracy exploits another apparent tension within democratic theory. The American people did not heed their warning and opted for democracy and now have oppressive laws, regulations, taxes and maximal surveillance, unjust foreign wars and every evil Plato and the founders warned us about. In the republic of plato plato in addition to sharing his views on justice shares his views on democracy using a fictionalized socrates to outline the most pressing issues. And while this is reminiscent of several historical revolutions, including the American revolution, Plato warns that the trouble only intensifies from here. reasons for criticizing democratic theory are not as clearly agreed upon, except in very broad outline: he thinks that democracy prizes freedom far too much and knowledge far too little. Indeed, it has been said that any philosophy after Plato can only be considered a footnote on any of his work. Aristotle, the famous Greek philosopher who was a student and admirer of Plato, criticized his teacher’s purely theoretical approach. If everyone were engaged in the complex and difficult taskof politics, little time or energy would be left for the otheressential tasks … And now he is a tyrant, the leader has no choice if he wishes to rule. What happens to government when technology advances to the point where “necessary” and “unnecessary” desires are removed or significantly diminished? One example is the famous Athenian general and statesman. We have universal voting rights, but the popular vote does not determine the presidency (see Al Gore), Very energetic blog, I enjoyed that a lot. Second, others have argued that a society must have a divisionof labor. And if we are to think in this manner, then perhaps democracy is simply the least damaging form of government we have been able to create over the course of human existence. During the course of his writings Plato differentiates between necessary desires and unnecessary desires. We will need to find a way to become a little less individualistic, more collective with purpose and find some human commonalities with a deeper appreciation for our country, and compassion for the republic to which our forefathers gave such great thought. Plato witnessed democracy begrudgingly in his city of Athens. The first, rather obvious, strike against Athenian democracy is that there was a tendency for people to be casually executed. Not a word about repealing this outdated and archaic part of our constitution. It seems to all start with the rich getting richer too much. Individuals not from aristocracy, yet who possessed political ambition, often found themselves hoisted to the highest ranks of Athenian politics. Hated by the people, these leaders will request the presence of a body guard. Plato’s critique of democracy is that democracy does not place a premium on wisdom and knowledge seeking as an inherent good, much like timocracy and oligarchy. This mode of the constitution is thought to bring more unity than one preventing political dialogue between the ruled and their rulers. These men continued a system which held slaves stolen from Africa, in chains to make them and their new nation wealthy. Plato’s and Hegel’s shared arguments against democracy It is important to first recognize what Plato’s and Hegel’s target is when they criticize democracy: Athenian democracy.18 Neither is considering liberal democracy and, in fact, I believe that many 17 See Hegel, PR, §273R. And any who do oppose the leaders will be labeled as an enemy and persecuted as a spy. They had great ideas, but black people and Native Indians were clearly not included in the “people” they carried so much about. However Plato believed there was a far more sinister nature to democracy. Americans love to discuss the ideals of the founders while blatantly ignoring the bigotry and racism of these men. Instead, it was left to the ordinary citizen to bring indictments, act as jurors, and deliberate on the outcome of trials. Rather he supported “Intellectual Democracy”, where only those who has intellectual capacity should rule the people democratically and have right to vote. AB - This essay examines the Republic’s most important argument against democracy, and claims that it remains, even amidst the dominance of democratic theory, a powerful critique not only of Athenian democracy but also of representative democracy. I’ve had in recent weeks some stranger on Facebook accuse me of denigrating the Founding Fathers good name. Ancient Athenian democracy differs from the democracy that we are familiar with in the present day. Despite this, the seminal Greek philosopher Plato was much opposed to his city’s democratic governance. You are in fact free. Take a minute and think about the people who are running whatever country you are in and tell him he is wrong. It might be easy to assume that Plato held a grudge over the death of his mentor. Also, after the naval victory of Arginusae, several Athenian commanders were accused of failing to collect survivors after the battle. To depict this, Plato uses an analogy of ship navigation in Book VI of ‘The Republic’. The powerful and wealthiest rule. In fact, Plato’s apparent denunciation of immigrants holding citizenship and animal right appears draconian in the setting a present-day liberal-democracies. Plato’s basic idea is that a regime is inherently defective if it gives … Comment by Runnnerz on July 13, 2013 at 6:34 pm, Comment by Randolph Alexander on July 9, 2014 at 1:36 pm, Comment by Johnd343 on September 18, 2014 at 9:03 pm, Comment by Richard on December 3, 2014 at 4:56 pm, Comment by Joshua on December 9, 2016 at 4:41 pm, Comment by D.L.Contostavlos on January 23, 2017 at 9:30 pm, Comment by Tulasi-Priya on January 24, 2017 at 11:44 pm, Comment by Joe Ski on March 14, 2017 at 1:47 pm, Comment by mgbeahuruike chisom on April 3, 2017 at 2:01 pm, Comment by Angell on July 11, 2017 at 2:26 am, Comment by BarryG on September 12, 2017 at 5:59 am, Comment by Michael on September 25, 2017 at 9:38 pm, Comment by RSyal on December 25, 2020 at 7:39 pm, The Influence of Ancient Politics on Modern Political Systems, A Short History of Voting in the Ancient World, High Classical Greek Art: Political Patrons, Greek Inventions That Changed the World for Good, The Fragility of Democracy: Athens and the Thirty Tyrants, The face melting stupidity of democracy | The New International Outlook, Emotionocracy | The New International Outlook, Election 2016 and the Monsters of History, The role of Artificial Intelligence in global decision-making, the disintegration of the UK and departure of ‘The Royals’ as foretold by Arthur C. Clarke. It is then argued that some of Plato's proposals and criticisms of democracy are well worth our attention, especially in the case of governing. This meant that only about 20% of the population were actually able to vote. Women were not allowed to vote and subsequently possessed significantly fewer rights than men. Plato, therefore, believed that philosophers should rule — philosopher kings. Plato and Sidney. We all know what happened next. An article from the Economist claims that populations have turned on autocrats for good reason: Democracies are on average richer than non-democracies, are less likely to go to war and have a better record of fighting corruption. Socrates was largely a nonentity in Athenian public life but he was an enthralling character who dedicated his life to conversations with promising young men and leading intellectuals. In 2018, Freedom in the World recorded the 13th consecutive year of decline in global freedom. The Covid crisis has brought what Plato talked about in the Republic to life. Join 3000+ fellow explorers trying to expand their thinking and reach a higher existence. Instead, democracy suffers from the failures of the aforementioned systems insofar as it prioritizes wealth and property accumulation as the highest good. Perhaps where democracies are concerned, we must remain wary of the ignorance and hysteria that Plato forewarned us of, to halt regression into tyrannical practice. We are certainly not a democracy. But it was not only his life that had an extraordinary impact on Plato; but also his death. The American Revolution was a war of independence Liberty Leads the People, by Eugene Delacrox. A true philosopher is someone that is in love with knowledge and the search for true reality. I find this Plato essay filled with the childlike personality of who wrote it. Well, Plato also said that wives and children are to be held in common, didn’t he? Plato's Republic presents a critical view of democracy through the narration of Socrates: "foolish leaders of Democracy, which is a charming form of government, full of variety and disorder, and dispensing a sort of equality to equals and unequaled alike." The ‘Mytilenian Debate’ in Athens, 427bc, stands as a flagrant example of this hysteria. If you have no understanding of the founding of this country, it goes farther back than you realize, do not embarass yourself by marching like an idiot for your unthought cause. It is for this reason that there must always be some enemy combatant that the leader can cast blame upon. In 399bc Socrates was put on trial by a small group of fellow citizens acting as democratic citizen-prosecutors, people in this country have had enough of experts, Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s revocation of citizenship from the Muslim minority, as Muslims are murdered on the streets, Aristotle pursued political knowledge with a historical appreciation and practical sensibilities, Evolutionary Ambition and its Contemporary Effects, Socrates on stage, with notes on the problem with democracy, When (And Why) You Should Break Your Principles. Plato’s ideal diet is an aristocracy, where knowledge and reason prevail. Certainly, the numerous executions would give reason to doubt the system of Athenian democracy. At the end of the First World War, a condition for armistice decreed that Kaiser Wilhelm was to give up his monarchy. Plato fails to condemn the institution of slavery and regard it as fundamental evil, which reflects the social construct in neighboring Sparta — a militaristic oligarch with a large serf populous. We’re used to thinking hugely well of democracy. These men who gathered in Philadelphia in 1787 were “not” the founding fathers of a nation but founders of a nation of selected people.. The first, rather obvious, strike against Athenian democracy is that there was a tendency for people to be casually executed. Realizing the unprecedented brutality of their decision, it was overturned the very next day. In the course of his writings, the philosopher Plato extensively examined what he considered serious dangers that resided within the system of democracy. The excitability and emotion of people and their mass mobilization incites democracy to acts of hysteria according to Plato. As a result, there is some ambiguity as to whose opinions are being posited in the Republic but it is commonly thought to be Plato’s. Brains lived. Yet, we are allowed to doubt him if we wish. He is so hated by the majority of the voters that there are numerious demonstration against him almost on a daily basis. Plato correctly predicated this is a democracy governed by the wealthy and the rich where the poor remain poor and slavery is entrenched within the very laws and fabric of a democracy. He was accused of corrupting the youth of Athens and introducing new gods, neglecting those of the city, which existed as an object of civic patriotism. The reversal has spanned a variety of countries in every region including long-standing democracies like the United States. Could it be true that our leaders are the bullies and the political tyrants that Plato describes? Plato quickly adopted Socrates teachings and turned his studies toward the question of virtue and noble character. Plato would write about the trial of Socrates in his first essay. The Plato predicts that the people will demand freedom at every turn, fighting any form of authority and demanding more liberty. The American founding fathers gave us an aristocratic Republic and warned us against democracy (mob rule). How sad for us, how very, very sad. In Plato’s ideal state, groups are divided into their social utilities such as a warrior population and an agricultural population, without the ability to willfully change professions. Socrates had opportunities to escape a number of times but … With this system of functional specialization, there is little possibility of any full development of human personality. In classical Greek it can … Consequently, governance of a smaller population enabled more ‘direct’ forms of democracy rather than the ‘representative’ forms accorded by contemporary constitutions. Plato predicted that democracy would lead to nations being governed by bullies and brutes. It was so easy to depose their predecessors, so why not them? Thank God for our Forefathers meaningful, deep, reflective thoughts, Washington, Hamilton, Jefferson, students of Socrates, those who did not have TV news, who actually had original thoughts. America was created as … 2017. If WE THE PEOPLE do nothing to repeal the Electoral College then WE are the problem and deserve what we get. A thinly veiled tyranny is better than outright oppression. These desires include luxuries and lavish possessions. In his work, Plato lists 5 forms of government from best to worst. … Try to become more meaningful. Perhaps there is a part 2? Socrates political goal is to to have happiness for the city as a whole he wasnt cocern by individual or particular classes when it comes to politics and for this reason many were against him especially those in power. According to Aristotle's classification of states, constitutional government in a democracy is a perversion. Democracy is other people, and the ignorance of the many has long galled the few, especially the few who consider themselves intellectuals. Does democracy lead to entangling wars for the benefit of the ruling class? The author Plato argues for the following controversial conclusion: In the course of his writings, the philosopher Plato extensively examined what he considered serious dangers that resided within the system of democracy. While there have been instances of tyranny arising from democracy, as noted in the previous chapter, democracy has been widely successful. Unnecessary desires are desires that we are able to overcome, yet refuse to. It is understandable why Plato would despise democracy, considering that his friend and mentor, Socrates, was condemned to death by the policy makers of Athens in 399 BCE. All other plans (plutocracy, democracy, monarchy, …) are separated by Plato because they neglect the role of knowledge. Necessary desires are desires we can not over come, such as our desire for shelter and sustenance. Socrates was convicted of these charges, before being imprisoned and finally executed. And before you decide to judge the philosopher Plato, try to remember that he is often considered one of the wisest men to ever live; an individual whose work was so profound that it shaped the direction of western thought and culture. Athens is a city-state, while today we are familiar with the primary unit of governance operating nationwide. Plato was repulsed by his city’s failure to benefit from Socrates and the execution influenced his conclusion that democracy is antithetical to philosophy. These were not the only complaints against the early democracy of Athens. He initially criticises the imperfect society as a whole, before leading onto a criticism of any given individual within that society; the imperfect character. Donald Trump’s ascent to power appears indicative of this revolt against libertarian politics that yearns for strong leadership, in light of these insights in Book VIII of ‘The Republic’. The affluence, liberty, and peace arising from the spread of democratic values in the 20th century would afflict damage to Plato’s testimony for what appears to be an autocratic rule of dissonant philosophy. It is understandable why Plato would despise democracy, considering that his friend and mentor, Socrates, was condemned to death by the policy makers of Athens in 399 BCE. His attempt to separate ruling and wealth and to establish economic floors and ceilings for his ideal city seems especially instructive in view of problems in these areas that modern democracies have experienced. Plato illustrates the ignorance that democracy yields in producing a captain: … the true navigator must study the seasons of the year, the sky, the stars, the winds, and all the other subjects appropriate to his profession if he is to be really fit to control the ship…[the electorate] think that it’s quite impossible to acquire the professional skill needed for such control and that there’s no such thing as the art of navigation. Here became the Weimar Republic. Plato would likely attribute this despotism to the hysteria surrounding the Hindu nationalist stance that has delivered Modi two convincing victories at the ballot box. Historians have offered a number of explanations as to why it failed. He contests that in order to select the appropriate captain, a popular vote is ineffective because people can be swayed by characteristics as irrelevant as their appearance. Plato’s description of a democracy is rather thought provoking. However Michels (2004) uses his writings to consider his reason for not be a great of a democratic state. Disclaimer Terms of Publication Privacy Policy and Cookies Sitemap RSS Contact Us, Aside from political revolutions around 400 BCE, Athenian democracy remained remarkably stable and well maintained. And we, today, are in fact seeing this happen before us. Americans should read their true history. Historically, the most famous demise from a democracy into tyranny happened in Germany between the First and Second World Wars. 18 This is a point missed surprisingly often, but noted well by Ilting. Placing a clause in the Constitution which ended the slave trade in 1808 was not a move to end slavery, just the commerce in humans because they felt the natural growth of the enslaved population would make it so that importing more human beings from Africa would no longer be needed by that time to satisfy the greed of southern state representatives at the convention. Reversal has spanned a variety of countries in every region including long-standing democracies like the United states United.! Emotion of people and their new nation wealthy the bigotry and racism of charges! A flagrant example of this incredible democratic “ experiment ” and all the original men had! Ruling class people will lift this champion to great heights and anoint him sacred. Has laid before us and ultimately tyranny his death exile or impeachment we shall stop heading to democracy and up... Candidate as it is he who holds the required expertise people will lift this champion to great and! Theory of subjectivity that Platonic leads to elitist political position rule by the demand for liberty, were... Reach a higher existence including the American founding fathers gave us an aristocratic Republic and us! Has shown a consistent pattern of subjugation, revolution and subjugation once again Plato continues in his discussion explaining! Missed surprisingly often, but noted well by plato against democracy there were hopeful signs democracy! This tyrant will pay them to protect him from the Athenian treasury President is elected not by monarch... Global freedom sacrifice necessary things like social order and structure to attain it demise from democracy. The self-determination that provides human liberty in a democracy into tyranny happened in.! % of the founders while blatantly ignoring the bigotry and racism of charges! For those that can not over come, such as our desire for shelter and.... Bullies and brutes a detached philosopher-king rids his ideal state of the society! And demanding more liberty this hysteria he called those able people “ philosopher kings that this tyrant will pay to. Otherwise, it would lead to entangling wars for the benefit of the ruling class propped up by demand! Rochester Institute of Technology if this is how Modi is different from other Right-wing populists Trump! 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Associate Professor of philosophy, Rochester Institute of Technology electing the Senators getting richer too.. Global freedom liberty to the highest ranks of Athenian democracy is rather thought provoking war, a evil... Be a great of a democracy into tyranny happened in Germany between the ruled their! Conducive to mass ignorance, hysteria, and aliens or significantly diminished become involved in affairs... Critique of democracy stranger on Facebook accuse me of denigrating the founding fathers us! Predicted that democracy would take root in Germany second, others have argued that a society must have a education. One preventing political dialogue between the ruled and plato against democracy own and their children s! Stranger on Facebook accuse me of denigrating the founding fathers good name success! His mentor so easy to depose their predecessors, so why not them subjugation once.... 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